RAUK - Archived Forum - Humane despatch of marsh frog

This contains the Forum posts up until the end of March, 2011. Posts may be viewed but cannot be edited or replied to - nor can new posts be made. More recent posts can be seen on the new Forum at http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/

Forum Home

Humane despatch of marsh frog:

Author Message
leilagriffiths
Member
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
No. of posts: 2


View other posts by leilagriffiths
Posted: 12 Jun 2008

As marsh frog are listed on Schedule 9 of the W & C Act, we are supposed to kill them if they come into our possession.

I am aware of humane control methods for signal crayfish (put them in freezer) but not for frogs.

Any advice? Are people actually doing this in practice?

Thanks


LG
GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
No. of posts: 2090


View other posts by GemmaJF
Posted: 12 Jun 2008

Hi Leila,

Brain pithing (or more specifically double pithing where the spinal cord is also destroyed) would be the way to go in my opinion as amphibia will suffer a very slow painful death in the freezer, though it is usual that the animal would be cooled to a low (but not freezing) temperature to facilitate the procedure . This should only be carried out by someone who is trained in the procedure in any case. For some species this presents more difficulties than others.

[QUOTE=leilagriffiths]

Any advice? Are people actually doing this in practice?

Thanks

[/QUOTE]

No I wouldn't do it in practice. 

As the frogs tend to congregate around water bodies at this time of year we have in the past managed to almost entirely avoid the issue by planning fencing that didn't include the water bodies concerned. I really see no point in killing the odd individual animal if it ends up caught up in a mitigation for a different target species either, as where they occur they are often abundant and widespread in the area in any case so it would serve no purpose at all. You really need to make an assessment of the situation and if necessary talk to the NE team involved and find an acceptable path to follow at the outset.


Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant
David Bird
Forum Specialist
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 515


View other posts by David Bird
Posted: 12 Jun 2008
Don't expect much help from N.E. I am still waiting for an answer from 2 months ago regarding licence addition to be able to test for Chytrid fungus release the "Green Frogs" in the same place, where there is a large number and surrounding habitat that is being made even more suitable by local N.E. so chances to be a huge population, for the follow up testing. I was told that there other people in the same situation as me which was suppposed to satisfy me, there seemed no sense of urgency which there should have been due to breeding seasons and the timing of the Chytrid fungus testing. The keeping of 25 animals or their killing would have made no difference to the overall population in the area.
I would have a look at the paper on the eradication of the American Bullfrog colony on the Sussex/Kent border to see what they used. I would use MS222 or Benzocaine myself although I have pithed frogs in the dim distant past for laboratory heart work.
British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker.
Caleb
Forum Coordinator
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
No. of posts: 448


View other posts by Caleb
Posted: 13 Jun 2008
[QUOTE=David Bird]I would have a look at the paper on the eradication of the American Bullfrog colony on the Sussex/Kent border to see what they used.[/QUOTE]

Some of them were shot, according to Christopher Lever's book...

The University of Florida describe a method using benzocaine ointment (intended for invasive Cuban treefrogs) which sounds easy, simple, effective and humane.
herpvet
Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
No. of posts: 30


View other posts by herpvet
Posted: 26 Jun 2008
Hello,

Freezing is NOT considered humane for any species, as far I aware, and should not be used.

Ideally overdose of anesthetic should be used - introcoelomic pentobarbitone, or MS 222 overdose, would be preferable, although give the hypoxia resistance of amphibians I would always follow this up with a physical method (pithing/freezing (if contact with anaesthetic is maintained)/dissection if tissues required).

Clove oil from a chemist, up to 10 drops per litre of water to effect (must be emulsified in a small amount of warm water first) can also be used to deeply/terminally anaesthetise the amphibian.

Hope this helps.

Bruce.



Bruce Maclean, Bird & Exotic Animal Veterinary Services.
adamanteus
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
No. of posts: 66


View other posts by adamanteus
Posted: 26 Jun 2008

Clove oil from a chemist, up to 10 drops per litre of water to effect (must be emulsified in a small amount of warm water first) can also be used to deeply/terminally anaesthetise the amphibian.

Just out of curiosity, Bruce, would this work for reptiles?  Or is it purely a method used on amphibians?


James.
herpvet
Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
No. of posts: 30


View other posts by herpvet
Posted: 26 Jun 2008
Hi,

As far as I know, it's only recorded for fish and amphibians. With reptiles you would have difficulty getting in into them adequately since soaking would be unlikely to work, at least in a reasonable time in reptiles.

I would guess in theory intracoelomic injections of clove oil might work in reptiles, but basically in practice the simple answer would be not use it in reptiles.

With reptiles I would definitely go the pentobarbitone route - you should be able to work with a local vet for that. I would recommend going to a vet for amphibians and fish also for inexperienced people, but it is a sad fact that many people won't.

Rapid physical brain destruction by a sharp crushing of the head is humane, if you can do it properly.

[QUOTE=adamanteus]

Clove oil from a chemist, up to 10 drops per litre of water to effect (must be emulsified in a small amount of warm water first) can also be used to deeply/terminally anaesthetise the amphibian.

Just out of curiosity, Bruce, would this work for reptiles?  Or is it purely a method used on amphibians?

[/QUOTE]
Bruce Maclean, Bird & Exotic Animal Veterinary Services.
adamanteus
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
No. of posts: 66


View other posts by adamanteus
Posted: 26 Jun 2008

Oh, I see... you soak the animal in it!  How stupid do I feel now?!

I have no need to use any of the methods listed above, nothing to kill at the moment.... I was just curious.

It is very true that many people don't consult a vet if they need to destroy these types of animal. (for whatever reason).  I have heard of many 'pet keepers' simply putting the hapless creature into the freezer.

I host another reptile forum, most of the members of which are in the US.  We are frequently asked how to humanely destroy snakes etc which have been injured by lawn-mowers, traffic, neighbours boot etc.  The people who ask this question of us probably wouldn't want to pay vet fees, they are simply trying to be 'Good Samaritans' and put an injured animal out of it's misery.


James.
AGILIS
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
No. of posts: 694


View other posts by AGILIS
Posted: 26 Jun 2008
easiest way to eliminate or exterminate them is  you just stamp on them hard & quick kaput mein  fuhrer !    or better still just leave them alone. I cannot believe that any herpotologist would want to kill any species even if they arent natives keith  AGILIS39625.5517592593
   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
Matt Harris
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
No. of posts: 196


View other posts by Matt Harris
Posted: 26 Jun 2008
[QUOTE=leilagriffiths]

As marsh frog are listed on Schedule 9 of the W & C Act, we are supposed to kill them if they come into our possession.


I am aware of humane control methods for signal crayfish (put them in freezer) but not for frogs.


Any advice? Are people actually doing this in practice?


Thanks

[/QUOTE]

No-one is 'supposed' to kill them - there's no statutory requirement to do so if you get hold of them. You're just not allowed to re-release them that's all. With all these naturalised species, the best bet if possible is not to collect them at all until you have the means to re-house them in captivity or put them to sleep humanely.

Matt Harris39625.6835532407
Gwent Amphibian and Reptile Group (GARG)
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 27 Jun 2008

I would say that take them to a vet an dge thtem to put them down - Vets are often very happy to treat injured wildlife if you cannot rehome them then perhaps a local vet would help.

In Essex the Wildlife Hospital has the means to dispatch animals if need be but as Matt said try not to capture them.

J


Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
Brian
Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
No. of posts: 17


View other posts by Brian
Posted: 02 Feb 2009

I took part in the Cowden bullfrog control. The advice we got from RSPCA, was to put the frogs in Benzacaine and then destroy the brain tissue. Placing them in a chicken mascerator was suggested - we did not take this up - it smacked too much of whats green and red and goes round and round at 90mph.

The benzacaine had to be disolved in acetone, and the frogs did react when placed in the solution - so it did not seem ideal to me.

The issue of marsh frogs, say, turning up in mitigation pitfall traps in an area where they are abundant is a tricky one. On Romney Marsh, for instance, there is no point killing the animals as they are abundant in the area and it serves no purpose. The intention of the legislation is presumeably to stop spread of the species, but in such a situation results in the lkilling of individual animals for no significant benefit.


Brian Banks
Swift Ecology
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 03 Feb 2009

So it is best to leave the animals on site rather than be accused of taking them anyway else - I doubt that a prosecution would occur if someone captured marsh frogs on a mitigation scheme in an area where the species is already abundantand were picking them out of the pitfalls or bottle traps and letting them go at the point of capture.

 

Jon

 


Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
Brian
Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
No. of posts: 17


View other posts by Brian
Posted: 03 Feb 2009

Yes, that would be my view for European aliens at an area where they are well established. Bullfrogs would be a different matter......

If in doubt always worth checking id and letting someone know at Froglife or Natural England.

Brian39847.294849537
Brian Banks
Swift Ecology
ben rigsby
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
No. of posts: 337


View other posts by ben rigsby
Posted: 11 May 2010
agilis' advice is the soundest, cheapest (and most humorously worded!) here in my view. though admittedly, ive only humanely despatched mammals, not amphibians.
that doesnt mean ive INhumanely despatched either mind you. id better clear that up.

rock on!

ben
Diversity.
Brian
Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
No. of posts: 17


View other posts by Brian
Posted: 15 May 2010
Of course the other approach, if you are working in an area where it is likely that you will encounter these animals, and humane despatch is unlikely to affect the population (marsh frogs in Romney Marsh for instance) that you could apply for a licence from Natural England - something I have done this year.
Brian Banks
Swift Ecology

- Humane despatch of marsh frog

Content here