RAUK - Archived Forum - Adder Translocation

This contains the Forum posts up until the end of March, 2011. Posts may be viewed but cannot be edited or replied to - nor can new posts be made. More recent posts can be seen on the new Forum at http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/

Forum Home

Adder Translocation:

This is Page 1

Author Message
slippery42
Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
No. of posts: 45


View other posts by slippery42
Posted: 18 Mar 2007
An announcment on this project will be made soon.


slippery4239163.4466666667
armata
Forum Specialist
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
No. of posts: 928


View other posts by armata
Posted: 18 Mar 2007
NOT LONG DISTANCE TRANSLOCATIONS I TRUST!!!!
'I get my kicks on Route 62'
Chris Monk
Senior Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
No. of posts: 157


View other posts by Chris Monk
Posted: 18 Mar 2007

I would back up Tony's statement.

Last year we never got to the bottom of a news story on BBC Radio Derby about adders translocated from a road scheme site in their radio station catchment area (North Staffs and southern 2/3 of Derbyshire). According to one of my toad crossing co-ordinators, who heard the broadcast some weeks before he told me, they were taken to Cumbria (approx 150 miles away) to be released. WHY???? There are suitable sites within their local range, where they used to occur, which now have appropriate management and ownership so that the reasons for their original extinction no longer apply.

Does anyone really know how much of this sort of movement currently goes on in this country.

PS What does "Natural England are aware of the project" mean? Are they supporting it officially or financially.

 


Chris
Derbyshire Amphibian & Reptile Group
www.derbyshirearg.co.uk
GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
No. of posts: 2090


View other posts by GemmaJF
Posted: 18 Mar 2007

Is this the announcement we have be waiting for? I would not translocate adder outside their home range. Also, in which county is the receptor site Graeme? I'm sure we would all be interested to know.

Chris, I think you are looking at the tip of an ice burg regarding long range translocations that seem to have very little logical explanation (other than perhaps it was convenient)

GemmaJF39159.8346643519
Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant
John Newton
Senior Member
Joined: 19 May 2005
No. of posts: 151


View other posts by John Newton
Posted: 18 Mar 2007

Chris

Try this link to adders which were moved from the A74 road scheme - might be a case of Radio Derby mis-reporting the A74 work - maybe not!

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/newsrele.nsf/WebPressReleases/C22 C518DDA31A0E48025717300424F3D

I would echo the views of Tony/Chris/Gemma here on the option of long distance translocation - any 'scientific' studies pertaining to translocated animals could be just as easily carried out on animals translocated within their home range. Mind you, I'm not sure what you can measure that might be attributed directly to the effects of translocation, other than perhaps a notable mortality (food availability ?, predation ?, stress ?), dispersal (adaptability to a new environment ?, stress ?), reproductive issues (mortality, dispersal)

All of these problems could obviously also be present in many 'sub-optimum' populations that have never been translocated, and so I am fairly cautious about any prospective studies that set out to 'benchmark' the success, or otherwise, of translocation.

 


John Newton

South Yorkshire ARG
GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
No. of posts: 2090


View other posts by GemmaJF
Posted: 18 Mar 2007

I agree John, any project to gauge the success of a translocation needs a great deal of work. I carried out a very short distance translocation of adder in 2005. It was a success mainly because we identified the hibernation site and simply moved them from a foraging area back 'home'. With a bit of thoughtful timing this worked well. I didn't have much opportunity for follow-up but a good proportion were identified as having overwintered successfully (along with many more that were never part of the mitigation). The foraging area was only subjected to some low impact maintenance work, and later restored.

I cannot see any merit in distant translocation of adder and hope Graeme has this mind with his open call for adders that 'need' translocation. In particular I see very different habitats in my work that adder will use, this doesn't in my mind suggest that they can be mixed and matched.. heathland isn't chalk grassland etc etc so choice of a receptor site is never an easy thing for adder. In my mind it should always reflect the donor site or indeed already be part of the animals home range.


Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 19 Mar 2007

 

Translocating adders any great distance is a big NO NO (the newforest to Bedford trans' aside) -

Where abouts is the receptor site Graeme?

I have adders on most of my sites this year but none of them will be moved greater than 1km into the surrounding habitats found at each site - which is preferrable to 'bucket and dumping' them onto external receptor sites or rounding them up into a small in situ holding area.

What are your aims and objectives Graeme?

JC 

 

 

herpetologic239160.2561574074
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
armata
Forum Specialist
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
No. of posts: 928


View other posts by armata
Posted: 19 Mar 2007
GENETIC INTEGRITY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you imagine some scientifc herper who is probably not born yet doing a molecular study of berus pops

at some stage he/she is going say, well bugger me thats' odd

Why the NF-beds aside Jon??
'I get my kicks on Route 62'
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 19 Mar 2007

Because that happened and it shouldnt really of happened like it did - so that aside because it appears that the animals are now breeding on the site......it was a relocation of baby adders mind so they may have a better chance of settling into the new habitat

though of course this means that genetic stock from the New Forest reptiliary which may have come from other parts and not just the new forest are now residing in Bedfordshire!

 

JC


Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 19 Mar 2007

Graeme are youy there?

 

 


Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
armata
Forum Specialist
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
No. of posts: 928


View other posts by armata
Posted: 19 Mar 2007
Yes, Graeme where are you, we need to resolve this.

Projects like this do really worry me, even under the guise of science
'I get my kicks on Route 62'
GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
No. of posts: 2090


View other posts by GemmaJF
Posted: 19 Mar 2007

What bothers me and I'm sure Graeme has all this in hand, is why is the site being defined as suitable for an adder translocation, with no adders to translocate as yet it appears.

I would have thought

a) If it is suitable they are already there or

b) it is isolated from any existing adder and therefore not suitable for a translocation at all, considering that the main problem facing adder is isolation from other populations - no conservation gain in creating another isolated population?

Would be nice to know Graeme what is planned.


Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant
slippery42
Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
No. of posts: 45


View other posts by slippery42
Posted: 21 Mar 2007
Sorry people I havent been avoiding this is just I am working around the UK on various projects (this is silly season after all) with only occasional access to the web.

I seem to have opened a can of worms.....its a great way of gettting a debate going

This thread was aimed at this end and looks as though there are interesting aspects to translocation.

Many of you know my experience in adder projects over 30 years and I can assure ALL that the aim of the project is to gain an understanding of the issues relating to translocation of adders.

I will be making an announcement  relating to the project in the near future as well as contacting various people with regards to the project.

Untill then anyone who wants to discuss things with me are free to call me.

armata
Forum Specialist
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
No. of posts: 928


View other posts by armata
Posted: 21 Mar 2007

Tis a bit vague Graeme, I know I'm paranoid about this aspect, but is there a reason it cannot be discussed on an open forum? No need to mention site specifics.
'I get my kicks on Route 62'
herpetologic2
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
No. of posts: 1369


View other posts by herpetologic2
Posted: 22 Mar 2007

Graeme, you have been 'working on adder projects for thirty years' surely you would have enough data from this extensive time period to answer some questions relating to adder translocations?

It seems to be a bit odd to offer a 'receptor site' to consultants when they should be keeping their adders in their local area - which can be done with relocation and short distance translocation - there is no need to send them off to your site at all is there?

JC

 

 

 


Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant -
visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife
GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
No. of posts: 2090


View other posts by GemmaJF
Posted: 22 Mar 2007

Seems this thread wasn't aimed at debate at all, lots of questions no answers. Oh well we'll all just have to keep bumping it to the top of the pile until Graeme explains it all to us.


Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant
Alex2
Senior Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
No. of posts: 266


View other posts by Alex2
Posted: 26 Mar 2007

What's the announcement then Slippery42????


armata
Forum Specialist
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
No. of posts: 928


View other posts by armata
Posted: 27 Mar 2007
This has died a death has it not
'I get my kicks on Route 62'
Alex2
Senior Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
No. of posts: 266


View other posts by Alex2
Posted: 27 Mar 2007
It certainly had a big build up, must admit am slightly intrigued by the announcement (or lack of it)...Perhaps he's too busy on other forums eh? ;)
slippery42
Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
No. of posts: 45


View other posts by slippery42
Posted: 28 Mar 2007
[QUOTE=Alex2]It certainly had a big build up, must admit am slightly intrigued by the announcement (or lack of it)...Perhaps he's too busy on other forums eh? ;)[/QUOTE]

????????????????????????

- Adder Translocation

This is Page 1

Content here