 |
|
|
"Tins": |
| Author | Message |
|
Mervyn Admin Group Joined: 14 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 41  View other posts by Mervyn |
Posted: 12 Jul 2003 Could someone let me know if "Tins" can be purchased and if so where from. Mervyn J. COTTENDEN, CPA |
|
Martin Senior Member Joined: 23 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 87 View other posts by Martin |
Posted: 12 Jul 2003 Hi Mervyn, did you particularly want tin tins? (So to speak!) A cheap and easy way that I've used is to buy a cheap roll of roofing felt and cut it into wide strips, then lay them out in your target area. Any other thoughts anyone? Martin. |
|
David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 12 Jul 2003 One can buy tins by looking in the yellow pages under Agricultural building merchants or producers. Some will advertise corugated sheets with various painted finishes and will cut them up to size but they work out very expensive about ْ 7.50 each when I last checked down my way. The way I do it is to go to one of these reclamation merchants that sell second hand bricks chimneys and anything that can be got from demolishing houses. I bought 12 ft by 2 ft sheets and some 12ft by 3 ft already covered in bitumen on one side for a couple of pound each. They will require cutting up and you need to find an engineers with a suitable size guilotine preferably not a precision one but one that can cope with bitumen or paint such as an Agricultural engineer may have. If thin corrugated sheet is obtained one can use tin snips or aviation shears but it is very hard on the hands. I hired a large angle grinder but it is an awful job smelly with sparks of tungsten carbide comeing off and burning your cloths and even with a dust mask the smell gets in your nostrils and seems to stay for about 24 hrs. Also your arms hurt like hell with the vibration. 1 disc only does about 20 tins before it is worn out so this is not cheap either. In the past I have looked for farms or organisations with old corrugated buildings falling down and you can get some for free and partly rusted through which makes them easier to cut by hand and seem to be slightly better for catching animals. They will get stolen or removed and thrown in ditches by kids or used for camps or mine usually get run over by prats who drive bulldozers or forestry harvesters and as usual are not looking at where they are driving on a site. One lot went up into heather cutting machine and caused a lot of expensive damage, that will teach them not to clear my tins off or ask if my work is finished before they go onto a site. Hold on to them as they are difficult to obtain in small numbers I have about 400 scattered about the country and move them from job to job but never have enough. Luckily my main survey work had a good supply of tin that they cut up for me they got someone in with an oxyacetiline cutting torch but one time they all fused together at the edges in a pile as he tried to cut through too many in a pile at once. I have looked under roofing felt that other people have used and it is easier to move around on large sites but still prefer tins, one person I know uses ruberoid corrugation sheet material to good effect but it is heavy and quite expensive. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
|
Mervyn Admin Group Joined: 14 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 41 View other posts by Mervyn |
Posted: 12 Jul 2003 Martin, David
Many thanks, much appreciated Mervyn J. COTTENDEN, CPA |
|
-LAF Senior Member Joined: 03 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 317 View other posts by -LAF |
Posted: 12 Jul 2003 Out of interest David, did you use the standard angle grinding head when you tried it, or did you use a disk cutter blade? I've seen a 5" disk cutter (not sure which type off hand, there's at least 3 for every job) cut scaffold poles, and I beleive you can get ones that are compatible with high powered mains drills as well as ones for angle grinders (and ones for Stihl saws too should you like that sort of thing  ). I'd be surprised if there wasn't one up chomping tin with little effort. Just a thought, Lee.Lee Fairclough |
|
David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 12 Jul 2003 I used 9" x 1/8" metal cutting discs on a large industrial 110 V machine from the local hire shop. not the small ones that one can buy in DIY shops. It is the cutting discs that just wear away but the shop didnt seem to have any stronger ones. Have another lot of sheets to cut up in the next few weeks so if I culd find some easier cheaper way it would be nice, this is all second hand old sheet with rust so dont think an engineer with a guillotine would like it. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 10 Aug 2003 Be aware that different materials will generate different survey results. Lots of consultants rely on roofing felt, but are their results representative of the area under study? I am currently engaged in a pilot study that involves a pairwise comparison of felt v tin on a 4 species site in Kent (although grass snake are rare on the site). Results are interesting and will be previewed at this year's HGBI SE Regional meeting (hosted by KRAG in Sevenoaks). SE Regional meeting Dave's preference for tin is well deserved, particularly if you are surveying for adder... Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 10 Aug 2003 Lee I am sure you have seen the papers below but have put the minimum details for other peoples benefits it they wish to read further on the subject of refugia and material, I am sure there are other papers and if anyone knows of any perhaps they could list them. Ridell A. 1996 Monitoring slow-worms & common lizards with special reference to to refugia materials,occupancy & individual i.d p 46-60 Cheung,M. & Gent,T. 1996 Evaluation of refuges for surveying common reptile spp. p 71-99 Discussion p 100-104 Barker,M. & Hobson,D. 1996 Artificial refuges with transects p.212-8 All in the E.N.Sci series No.27 Reptile survey methods. Barker & Hobson was first published B.H.S.Bull. 55 8-14 Also Grant B.W.et al 1992 The use of coverboards. In McCullough & Barrett Eds Wildlife 2001 : Populations 379-403 Chapman & Hall British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
|
GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090  View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 10 Aug 2003 I often stumble across roofing mats used for surveys and have yet to find much under one at all. Though I do see reptiles openly basking not too far away. (I would note that I do not check mats in areas likely to contain animals that require a licence for disturbance) Last Wednesday I was at a site with roofing mats, none had any signs of life, yet a few yards away the upper surfaces of discarded tyres were being put to good use by many Common Lizards throughout the heat of the day (recorded as peaking at 99.8F ouch!). The mats in question may be from a now discontinued survey, but were quite shaded by meadow grasses and cool to the touch, whereas the tyres stood proud and in full sun. I wonder how effective a mat is if placed on flat ground as opposed to on a slope where it is more likely to become heated? Thanks for the references David, I for one will benefit from finding out more about the techniques involved. Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 11 Aug 2003 A list of refs that deal with cover boards would be useful for all surveyors. Another quick ref to add to Dave's list: Tofts, R. and Craine, R. (2000) The effectiveness of وtinningئ in the translocation of slow-worms (Anguis fragilis) populations. Practice, No. 27. Gemma, my own surveys suggest that roofing felt is very effective for viviparous lizard (I refuse to call them common) and slow-worm. Carpet tiles can be good on some sites, particularly early in the season. Placement of refugia is critical as is re-positioning between years (and even within a year). However, results can often be very specific to individual sites and (as Dave has said elsewhere in the forum), describing a standardised method for surveying reptiles is fraught with difficulties. My own preference is to use a combination of different refugia material. Lee Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 02 Sep 2003 Actually got round to cutting up my tins yesterday and managed to hire a different machine. It was a 12" disc cuttter that was petrol driven and not the angle grinder shape which is awkward to hold for cutting but had the disc coming out from the front and the type of machine used for cutting kerb stones. We did try to hire one of these before but the hire shop denied that they had such a machine. The discs used are the same but seem to cut more tins and much quicker as we could cut the tins whilst upright. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 07 Sep 2003 Although tins seem to be preferred by adder (at least on the sites I survey in Kent), I do have to fess up that I have recently recorded an adult male adder from under roofing felt. This is only the second time that I have found an adder under felt (the first was a juvenile). It would be interesting to know what other people's experiences are with the effectiveness of various refugia with different species. Lee Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
Herpetologic Member Joined: 02 Sep 2003 No. of posts: 35  View other posts by Herpetologic |
Posted: 09 Sep 2003 I normally use black roofing felt (reinforced underslating felt) for surveys. i have found that the felt is effective for all four widespread species. Lizards are often found basking on top or under neath, adders Grass snakes and slowworms all use the felt tile. I do use corrugated iron from time to time for capturing in mitigation projects. I am currently working on a small site which has Viviparous Lizards on it (literally Hundreds and Hundreds) The tins are only effective in the early morning (7.30 to 11.00am) from then the animals are on the top of very large anthills which is where I catch most of the lizards. A sort of stalk, detect and pounce method the lizards are caught by ligh pressure of the hand which is difficult on tins the animals can get crushed if you miss judge it where the ant hill substrate provides protection to the lizard. I know people have compared the effectiveness of several refugia materials and they say that thay have found that flat black felt tiles produce the most animals??? it will be interesting to see the reuslt sof the comparision study Lee has made at the regional conference.
|
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 31 Oct 2003 You may all be interested in some preliminary findings from the KRAG Adders in Decline Project (2003 pilot). By comparing different refugia (88 tins v 88 roofing felt) at three different Kent sites over 58 survey visits, I have calculated the following preliminary results: % of 47 Adder Observations Basking openly - 8% (only adults) Roofing Felt - 15% (all lifestages, but only 2 adults) Tin - 77% (all lifestages) There are a few caveats to these results. Most notably the survey was set up quite late in the season (mid-late June; meaning that animals basking openly upon emergence from hibernation were missed), felt and tins were not always the same sizes etc. However, the results are certainly food for thought and remember it was only a pilot to help plan next year's big project. This project (Adders in Decline) will be launched at the SE Regional Conference. Lee Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 31 Oct 2003 I should add that the results for slow-worm are quite different - but I've not yet had chance to summarise them. Lee Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps |
Posted: 31 Oct 2003 Hi Lee, Just a point on periods for tins. Adders do not seem to use tins until around early to mid May. When first emerged my own records show that direct exposure when basking is essential. Also there is a tail off of tin use from around early September. (this does not account for the ones that were basking ON tin the other day!) How tins are placed is important, I never place direcxtly onto a favourable basking spot, but perhaps to jts one side perhaps weel in the vegetation. I could elaborate on all this if and when I collate all my records. Tony |
|
Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps |
Posted: 31 Oct 2003 I should have mentioned that these tins are long term on my study areas, both in winter and summer grounds for both adder and smooth snake. i.e. 20+years. Also, interestingly I have found that black binliner material appears to be good for everything, usually come across this as discarded material fly tipped sort of thing. Gareth Matthes and I have been monitoring a site wher and equal amount of felt and tins have been used 4 species present. We have also tried carpet tiles but I feel these are US. Tony |
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 31 Oct 2003 One of the other things apparent during this year's survey was the length of settling in time needed before adders started to use refugia was dependent upon when the tins were set. Refugia set at the end of the season (Aug/Sept) had to 'settle' for some considerable time before they were used. At one site a July replacement of old tins (too big; but being used by adder) for new (standard sizes) resulted in a 6 week absence of adder observations! Although this is not surprising (given the habitual nature of the beast), quantifying the results is important. Too many consultants place refugia down mid-season and check them over a relatively short period of time. Although such surveys may pick up lizards (inc. slow-worms and viv; I have had viv lizards using felt literally minutes after it being placed), adder stand a high chance of being missed. I am thinking of ways to test this experimentally next year. Hopefully the huge amount of data collected by folk such as Tony and David, along with small but targeted surveys such as the KRAG project can help to influence future survey guidelines. Of course what we need is a well coordinated national project  .
Lee Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
|
Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps |
Posted: 31 Oct 2003 Good points Lee. Surveys are US if they are restricted by stupid time limits - we should never go along with this just to appease the client. Tins need time to mature, puttinn winetr before season is really minumal for snakes. Slow worms will use tins when still 'green' underneath, and of course lizards are quick to bask on top. I am toying with idea of binliners even though it will look like your chicking litter around. I will lay some, weighed down each end this winter and see what happens. (on my study areas) Just of interest - when in SA we lifted up an old piece of tarpaulin app 3mX2m and found - i adult puff adder 1 aurora house snake and a juv eastern tiger snake - and oh yes there was a Cordylus basking on top before we lifted it. Tony |
|
calumma Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 351 View other posts by calumma |
Posted: 03 Nov 2003 Ok, results for the other species have been summarised. please note that these are all preliminary results and may be subject to change during later analysis. However, the main conclusions are likely to be very similar. Comparison of 88 tins v 88 roofing felt at three different Kent sites over 58 survey visits. % of 379 slow-worm observations: Basking openly -لللل<1% (single adult) Roofing Feltللللل-للل65% (all lifestages) Tinللللللللللللللللل-لللل35% (all lifestages) % of 345 viviparous lizard observations: Basking openly -لللل71% (all lifestages, but mostly immatures; remember late season survey) Roofing Feltللللل-للل8% (all lifestages) Tinللللللللللللللللل-لللل21% (all lifestages) Results for grass snake are in, but a little weak due to small number of observations (slight preference for roofing felt). None of the three sites surveyed supports a good population of natrix - we will have to try again on another site next year! Comments are welcome .
Lee Lee Brady Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant |
- "Tins" |
