RAUK - Archived Forum - BBC Radio 4 "Nature" programme

Next Monday night's Nature programme on BBC Radio 4 at 9pm is on "A raw deal for reptiles - why are Britain's Reptiles getting such a raw deal when it comes to conservation" (It is also repeated the next morning (Tuesday 21st June) at 11am.

Perhaps their researchers have been studying the posts on this Forum detailing some of the disasterous "management" by conservation staff of important reptile habitat areas on supposedly protected sites !

For anyone who missed the programme last night (I caught it this morning driving down the A12 to collect a corn snake that turned up in a garden in Kent) you can listen to it on you computer by using the following link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/nature.shtml

I have to say a big well done to all involved, who put across the issues regarding herp conservation very well.. I just hope some of those responsible for nature conservation in Essex were listening, particularly regarding adder declines and 'heathland restoration schemes'

I had the radio on last night on the way home from college after an exam. Some of you will have read that I am doing a HNC Wildlife and Countryside as I asked for some advice on a project for college.

I found the programme of interest as Dorset was in the spot light as well as the midlands. I was born in dorset and moved to the midlands about 9 years ago.

I think the programme highlighted a major issue that I have come across but under other words. The term "heathland restoration" is common near to where I live but is a lotto funded programme.

Great some will say but the thing I have noticed it is done under the classification of improvement to substain AONB.  The issue is make it look pretty and bugger anything that lives, nests, or migrates there, because the AONB  is a major visual aspect is the most important.

I find it hard to believe in this current state of troubles with all widlife that is no real planning or thought as to the damage being done.

But these people who say yes or no hold greater qualifications than me and through experience they won't give me a job!

Perhaps I'm just bitter?

I don't think so!

"Perhaps I'm just bitter?"

No, you sound frustrated that some elements refuse to the see the truth..

Heathland Restoration = Reptile Obliteration

Cost dictates that heavy plant is used during such schemes and the animals simply don't stand a chance.

It's all well and good to say that in the long term reptiles will benefit from open sunny areas but of little use when habitats are fragmented and there is a zero chance of recolonisation after the animals present before the restoration have been driven to extinction.

Still, I have it on good authority that adder can look after themselves after their habitat is destroyed and the snakes have been buried or crushed by heavy plant machinery..

(I hope I don't sound bitter )

Gemma,

Thanks for posting the link to the BBC prog - very good I thought.

When I lived in the Lake District many years ago a lot of country folk felt the only good snake was a dead one and would swerve in their cars to run them over. One man used to then reverse the car just to make sure he'd killed the snake!

Now living in Devon I am saddened by my neighbours - country people - who will happily stand and watch a cat kill a slow worm without intervening. Not one neighbour is interested in them and any talk of snakes or lizards produces a shudder of distaste.

Apart from habitat issues somehow reptiles need better press. Most children when shown snakes and lizards are interested and keen to see more. However I realise it is difficult to enthuse youngsters in group situations as the noise/vibration factor can lead to blank days. Birds, butterflies and some mammals are more visible and thus appealing. What can be done to encourage  the interest of people in our reptiles?

It is good to hear a programme like this and hopefully the mounting criticism of some heathland management projects, over tidying mania etc. will not fall on deaf ears.

Man I am laughing my a**e off all

How about ***cough***coastal realignment marsh restoration****cough***

well who can you complain to when there is a need for a DEFRA license when it is DEFRA and EN that are doing the works ---you are helpless as gcn ponds are swamped by saltwater, reptiles swimming for their lives around the seawalls and of course the cracker a water vole apparently being eaten by a Heron while it was escaping the flood good eh? well it was in front of a BBC camera crew he he

apparently

JC 

Thanks for the posting gemma, I'll give it a listen. All of the above messages had me nodding in agreement and a bit saddened. Incidentally, it's not necessarily heavy plant that can do the damage. In EF they use long horn cattle. Not one or two, but nine or ten!!

As some of you might have gathered, I'd been looking in EF for nearly 30 years but only twelve where I've been recording. At one point I saw over thirty Adders and twenty five Grass Snakes in one day! Since the bovine bulldozers moved in (previous comment as long as it looks tidy, sod the snakes!) the populations have been fragmented and in some places lost altogether...So called Heathland restoration. Now, the group of 25 grassies is down to 2!! How can i prove it? I can't. But that doesnt stop me knowing it. And further to the 'bad press' comment. Practically everything put in detrimental terms is referred to as "snakelike". What we need is someone like steve irwin both getting in the face of EN and talking up the cause for reptiles. Mmmm, now what's his email address again? R  

Rob

Earlier this year I looked at a site in the Peak District for the "Making the Adder Count" survey, where various people used to see adders but only occasional ones recently.  It had Highland cattle bulldozers on it with the heather slopes badly trampled in places and the largest best looking bracken bed laid flat where the bovines rested. Apart from any adders they may have flattened, in April these "placid" animals also had a go at a walker who was badly injured and taken to hospital by ambulance.

Chris,

thanks for letting me know. So they're dangerous to humans as well eh! Its just sheer laziness to use these creatures; clearance without cost! And more importantly, clearance without tact. R

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the comments above, grazing can reap benefits if done right. Here at a local site, we have 80 hectares of nicely preserved wet/dry heath and woodland, and only about 5 highland cattle. Since their introduction, I'm told that the rare flora on the site has flourished and spread across the site beyond the site's botanist's wildest dreams.

I would have loved the opportunity to do a before and after impact reptile survey, but alas, as usual I was too slow. Although, of all the sites I visit it still has, by far, the highest density across all four common species.

Maybe dry heathland and too many cattle is the issue ?  - any thoughts ?

Gemma,

100% behind what you have just said. Over use of numbers of cattle is the key and where they are used in relation to their size. I would imagine that if a small number of a smaller species (Goats?) were used with the intention that a given area would be cropped gradually instead of just flattened, it would be possible to manage effectively. After all, wild deer roam in EF and are hardly noticed. R 

Cattle are used on one of the heaths I wander in East Devon. I have been shown their importance for creating a habitat suitable for the southern damselfly - also seen the damselflies. This is explained on the RSPB website for anyone interested. They also munch/stomp on other areas of the heath away from the above mentioned habitat.

They are rotated round the heath and only ever graze certain areas. There are huge expanses of the heath where they don't graze. I don't know what the impact, if any, is on the reptiles although grass snakes quite like to bask on the cropped area which is created when the cattle hang over the electricified wire feeding, possibly adders like this too.

I have not seen an area trashed by the cattle. Perhaps that is due to good rotation and not over-stocking. Can any of you who know what effects are detrimental to reptiles by this grazing tell me what to look for then I can see what I think? Is the end-product of the grazing something that looks like an African plain with all pale grass and not much else?  

Rob would not goats be a bit of a devil to use as they are such escape artists?

Suzi, this is often the problem with getting this stuff across to people, what you describe sounds fine and inline with traditional use of heaths for grazing which no doubt was/is of benefit to reptiles, keeping an open aspect whilst not obliterating the general vegetation structure.

Some management teams see grazing as the ideal answer on a forty-acre site or simply over do it with the number of animals... thatÆs when you get an African plain. I've seen areas from 3 acres with two horses (Essex) through to 1000 acres Highland cattle (Surrey) devastated.

Over grazing, is charaterised by total loss of vegetation structure and signs such as damage to pond margins by large hoofed animals - when you see it, you'll know.

The point at many sites that is overlooked is that in comparison to the historical area of the heathland concerned we are now looking at tiny areas.. Often tiny areas that reptiles now use as a final haven from habitat loss. Rotation isn't feasible and the areas are not large enough for a succession of grazing and recovery. If these small areas are overgrazed it leaves reptiles open to predation causing the populations to crash and once the reptiles are gone they are gone for good, there is no chance of natural recolinisation at many sites.

Most of these problems could be avoided with a little on-site mitigation for herps, identification and protection of hibernacula, mating and foraging areas. Provision of log piles, artificial hibernacula and fencing off particularly suitable habitat or leaving wide marginal areas.. I'll carry on dreaming.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/sdamselfly_tcm5-34763.pdf

Link related to southern damselfy. Steve brooks (Field Guide Dragonflies and Damselflies) cites removal of grazing cattle from historical sites as a primary cause for the species decline, but interestingly the above document states overgrazing is also to be avoided.. just as it should be for reptiles and I guess many many other species.

Gemma,

Thanks for the explanation. I guess once when the heathland areas everywhere were larger then the damage by cattle was less if they were not too many as they had plenty of room to roam. I can see that concentrating too many beasts in a small area and tight rotations before they return to a patch can lead to problems. I suppose there is also the question of economics. The often poor nature of heathland vegetation for beef cattle fattening up would presumably have been a limiting factor for stocking levels in the past.

I will soon be spending more time on the heaths so will have to weigh up what I think of the cattle effect here. Certainly at the moment I am inclined to think it OK for reptiles if only for the proportion of heath that is grazed.

Suzi,

I'm afraid I think you are wrong on this. We are not JUST talking about the damage done to cover vegetation, we are talking disturbance. As you probably know, snakes in particular rely on information contained in vibrations in the ground. If there is thunderous hoof impacts all around them, of course they will retreat from an area. Coupled with this, prey items such as lizards, voles, crickets etc which also use the cover of vegetation will be driven away or become prey to more common species such as crows and magpies and i think you must agree, we have quite enough of those! 

You said yourself, that the Grass snakes seemed to bask just outside the area of grazing, ie; where the cattle had to reach through the fence to crop the vegetation. I would suggest the reason they liked to bask there is pricisely because the cattle couldnt trample them.

I think the point is that if you're talking about grazing and rotation, presumably you are not talking about 8/9 cattle spending the summer on an area of about 5 acres of heath! Its all about sensitivity of management. The reptiles in situations that I know of, cannot move to other sites, because there are no other sites suitable for them. This is the point. Conservation should come first, and solutions to over-dense scrub built around the upkeep of native species, rather than vice versa. R 

Rob,

Thanks for your coments. So far I am open-minded about the cattle grazing so it is good to hear everyone's opinions - especially those more knowledgeable. You raise a couple of good points - the vibrations from the hoof impacts and the crows and magpies.

Crows certainly frequent several of the cattle grazed areas - even when the cattle are not there - presumably because of the lack of vegetation. They don't congregate on the heather/gorse areas much as they can't see the ground. I have also seen foxes hunting in the daytime in the cattle grazed areas.

I would imagine the cattle areas to be no-go areas for reptiles as you say because of the disturbance by their plodding around. So could you say that these grazing areas might be forcing the reptiles into denser concentrations elsewhere - denser than is good for them with regards to territory and food finding? I can see how fragmentation of habitat might occur in some instances as you say.

Mmm now at the end of typing this I feel myself being a bit swayed against heathland cattle grazing!