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Spanish snakes-help with ID please: |
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Lisa Member Joined: 19 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 23  View other posts by Lisa |
Posted: 05 Aug 2004 Hi all, Just back from some time holidaying in North Spain where we managed to find representatives of most amphibians including some lovely alpine newts which Stewart caught for me in a drainage ditch. Sooo pretty. Found a coupla dead snakes on the road :-( They looked like grass snakes (juv ~15" long) but no collar. Does anyone know if this is usual in Spain or could they be different sub-species? Also saw two huge (4 foot long) snakes on an embankment near to a busy road and a railway. Didn't get a long look (partly cos I jumped and scared 'em off..idiot) but they were very dark/black above and paler below. Again no collar but definitely round pupils (managed get a good look as one eyed me up before making good their escape). Sorry no pics, I've found if I tek the camera everyone hides and conversely if I don't have it... but if anyone could hazard a guess, I thought they could be melanistic grass snakes but the lack of collar bothers me. Am off back in a month so any information gratefully received Cheers Lisa
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 05 Aug 2004 Hi Lisa, Which part of northern Spain? Northeast or northwest? Spanish grass snakes usually lack collars. However, there are a number of other large, large-eyed, active snakes that could potentially be confused with them. I am not sure whether melanism in grass snakes is common in Spanish snakes. Other possibilities are: The Montpellier snake (Malpolon monspessulanus) tends to be brown rather than black, and has particularly large, staring eyes. Coluber viridiflavus (now Hierophis viridiflavus) enters NE Spain (Catalonia) - usually black and greenish-yellws patterned, tail striped Elaphe scalaris (now Rhinechis scalaris) - ladder snake - brown with two lines along the back Elaphe longissima (now Zamenis longissimus) - Aesculapian snake - usually brownish, sometimes darker, with more or less distinct white stippling. If you go to images.google.com and type in the latin names, you should get some hits that will help. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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Matt Wilson Member Joined: 25 May 2003 No. of posts: 38 View other posts by Matt Wilson |
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 Lisa, In northern Spain (except N coast) the Montpellier Snake (Malpolon monspessulanus) is the most common species and is often found killed on roads. During my trips to Greece on average i see 20-50 dead montpellier snakes in the Spring-time. They are also large and fast-moving which fits your description. The other common snake of Iberia the Ladder Snake (Elaphe scalaris) tends to hold its ground and has odvious pattern. Unless you were near a water source Grass snakes are uncommon in Spain and unlikely to be seen away from river banks and swimming in pools were the Viperine snake (Natrix maura) is far more abundant. Matthew Wilson |
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Lisa Member Joined: 19 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 23 View other posts by Lisa |
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 Hi Wolfgang/Matt, Thanks for the comments/suggestions. I was in Galicia, NW Spain. I would say the two dead snakes were definitely Grass snakes; they were identical to our natives apart from the lack of collar. IÆm interested that you say Spanish Natrix donÆt tend to have the distinct collar Wolfgang as the populations are fairly close together (though I guess separated by salt water). Are the Spanish snakes a different sub species of N natrix? I then got thinking why two populations would evolve differently and what the purpose of the collar was anyway...it canÆt be sexual as I didnÆt think Nn was sexually dimorphic. Is it a warning? The other two are more tricky without the benefit of pics and with a fading memory (but then thatÆs been going a while!) They could be very dark montpeliers but IÆm not sure if they would be found so far north as the climate is more similar to the UK than the Mediterranean side of Spain or Greece. The pics I found on the web of Zamenis longissimus looked closer in terms of colour and body shape but I couldnÆt find anything about habitat. Would a railway embankment be at all likely? I enjoy a puzzle, Thanks Guys Lisa |
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Matt Wilson Member Joined: 25 May 2003 No. of posts: 38 View other posts by Matt Wilson |
Posted: 12 Aug 2004 Lisa, Often young montpellier snakes can look like Natrix and local people in Greece often refer to them that way, when really they are two very different snakes. I cannot imagine that the dead snakes were Grass snakes unless you recall an evident watersource either side of the road. Or even a stream passing beneath the road, this is often when one finds dead Natrix in the Med. I am having trouble posting some of my slides of Montpellier snakes which may help you decide, but errors keep popping up everytime. Matthew Wilson |
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Lisa Member Joined: 19 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 23 View other posts by Lisa |
Posted: 12 Aug 2004 Hi Matt, I don't recall a freshwater source near to either snake. They were both on coastal roads in the NorthWest (Asturias/Galicia border). You said in your previous post that Montpeliers were common except on the North Coast so I dismissed them for the dead snakes (The live ones were further inland near to the Portugese border). What is their distribution? and are Natrix rare even in the NW? I thought they'd be more like here. Please keep trying with the pics, a good view would be really helpful Thanks Lisa |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 Lisa, In that area, according to all the distribution maps I have seen, you don't get Montpellier snakes, so grass snakes are the most likely possibility. Since this is a fairly damp area, they may be less restricted to watery areas than elsewhere. Ladder snakes (Rhinechis scalaris, formerly Elaphe scalaris) occur in the extreme NW of Spain, but don't go all that far east along the north coast - but that might just about be a possibility. There are some useful photos at http://www.hlasek.com/cchadi1an.html Spanish grass snakes are sometimes classified as a separate subspecies, Natrix natrix astreptophora, but the usefulness of that is questionable, all the western European grass snakes are realy quite similar. The dark snake near the Portuguese border may have been a Montpellier snake, in fact, I can't really think of anything else it could be. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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Matt Wilson Member Joined: 25 May 2003 No. of posts: 38 View other posts by Matt Wilson |
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 Lisa, I am still having trouble posting my Montpellier snake pics. But there are some of my photographs from May on the following site: www.herp.it/SpeciesPages/MalpoMonsp.htm Hope they help, Matthew Wilson |
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Gemma Fairchild Krag Committee Joined: 14 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 193 View other posts by Gemma Fairchild |
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 Mat, if your trying to post using the forums piccy facility, it won't work as I disabled it, sorry haven't got around to removing all the icons or updating the 'how to post a piccy' page. Easiest way to get a picture on the forum is to upload it to http://photobucket.com which is free (250 Kb limit), then use the tree icon to post the URL of the picture to the forum. ----RAUK e-Forum---- 
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Lisa Member Joined: 19 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 23 View other posts by Lisa |
Posted: 17 Aug 2004 Hi, Thanks for the links guys. The R scalaris seems to have a distinct stripe. If that is normal then I stick to the dead ones being Natrix. The photos of Montpeliers do look similar to the two live ones I saw, at least the dark coloured one from the site Wolfgang posted does. The others are far paler than the two I saw in fact they seem to be very variable Matt? They were still in Galicia though (near to Ourense). Am I still too far north? A distribution map would be great. Am back there next week so will see if I can do better with photos! Cheers Lisa
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Matt Wilson Member Joined: 25 May 2003 No. of posts: 38 View other posts by Matt Wilson |
Posted: 17 Aug 2004 Lisa, N-W Spain is the only place in Iberia where Malpolon monspessulanus does not occur. I didn't realise that is where you stayed. But, it depends if you were staying on the N-W coast of Spain or inland, as the maps only show Montpellier snakes absent from the coastal areas. As far as i know the only really common colubrid in Spain are Montpelliers, the likes of Coluber hippocrepis are not present until about south of Barcelona. Elaphe scalaris is also absent from the N coast, but is present inland from the coastal areas, like the Montpellier snake. The Aesculapian snake is also absent, along with Western Whip Snake which occurs north of Barcelona in the N-E only. Basically if you saw the snakes away from the coastal areas i believe them to be Montpellier snakes. Try your best to get pics, although from my experience they are the most difficult European snake to photograph. And depending on your experience in attempting to catch such a species it is not to be recommended as they are fierce bitters! Although we are well into the summer i am sure you could still find the odd roadkill for an easier attempt at an ID. Good luck, Matthew Wilson |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 18 Aug 2004 Lisa, The area around Orense is in the range of both Malpolon monspessulanus and Elaphe scalaris. I will see if I can contact a colleague tonight who is a herpetologist in the area as he may be able to help if you are going out next week. David Bird British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 18 Aug 2004 The latest maps are on the Spanish Herp Soc. site http://www.mma.es/conserv_nat/inventarios/inv_biodiversidad/html/anfibios_reptiles/index.htm There is also a good site for the area the Portugese Herp.Soc. WWW.spherpetologia.org British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Lisa Member Joined: 19 Apr 2004 No. of posts: 23 View other posts by Lisa |
Posted: 18 Aug 2004 David, That would be fantastic - we are actually buying a house in the area so it would be great to speak with a local herpetologist. The maps are excellent and have tested my dire Spanish to its limit! Matt, Looking at the maps, Ourense is certainly well within the limits for Montpeliers. I promise to try for a pic but can't see me managing to catch one at this time of year given their apparent turn of speed. I hope I won't find any roadkills but will keep the camera handy. cheers Lisa |
- Spanish snakes-help with ID please |