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The toads are crossing roads in Wales: |
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Mark_b Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 No. of posts: 79  View other posts by Mark_b |
Posted: 03 Mar 2009 SWWARG are currently involved with 3 crossing sites. One doesnt need much help from us as the Bryncoch Environmental Volunteer Group are doing a wonderful job, as they have done for the last few years. But in the last week we were given details of two new sites Yesterday Peter & I went to one of roads, really fast 60mph speed limit. We got 68 toads, 5 frogs and 4 palmate newts from 7pm - 9pm. Because we arrived later there was about 10 - 15 dead toads/frogs.
Visited that site tonight (tues) and got 24 toads, 1 frog and 2 palmates ... 6pm until 7:30ish as there was no amphib activity for ages, the traffic was nonexistant and more importantly our torches were dieing. Only a few dead
The other small country road only had 5 toads and one frog over about 2 hours 
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369  View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 Perhaps it may be an idea to separate male toads from female toads when placing them in buckets. could a fence system be installed at the site to prevent patrollers going into the road? J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 [QUOTE=herpetologic2]Perhaps it may be an idea to separate male toads from female toads when placing them in buckets.[/QUOTE] I presume you mean separating unpaired individuals, rather than pulling apart already paired animals- do you actually do this? I can't imagine most volunteers being particularly keen on carrying two buckets, and having to sex toads in the dark at the edge of the road. Incidentally, the Amphibian Diseases Group at James Cook University, Australia suggest that for best protection against Chytrid fungus, "No more than one terrestrial individual should ever be held in the same container simultaneously". |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 Yes I do mean unpaired individuals. I am not sure whether multiple males are found on females on their way to the breeding pond. It is really to give the females a fighting chance rather than sticking them into a bucket full of males. Its is very simple to sex male and female toads mainly on size, nuptial pads and the alarm call by the male when you pick them up. It is a simple procedure and of course you can carry more than one bucket as I would hope that people work on these crossings in groups rather than on their own. It is simply a matter of organising the patrol to have buckets for males and for females with paired animals. Sp two people working together would easily carry two buckets for that purpose. The volunteers are keen to risk their lives collecting the toads from the road the least they could do is to reduce stress for the females they carry to the breeding ponds! A key factor in the disease having an effect is stress factors. Plus you want females to survive the matings you dont want to put females into the pond with a few hundred males. Its only a suggestion made by other toad patrollers in the country.
J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 I understand the reasoning, but I'm still skeptical that it would cause a significant amount of stress over and above the normal amount incurred in breeding behaviour. And they are getting a free ride, rather than having to walk all that way... I just worry that added complications put inexperienced people off volunteering for toadlifts- most people have enough trouble telling toads and frogs apart as it is. [QUOTE=herpetologic2]you dont want to put females into the pond with a few hundred males.[/QUOTE] But this is exactly what happens when they arrive naturally, anyway; males will always massively outnumber females in the water. Incidentally, I reckon the quickest way to sex toads at breeding time is to put two fingers between their front legs- males will instantly grab them. |
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Mark_b Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 No. of posts: 79 View other posts by Mark_b |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 I wasnÆt aware of that method (separating the sexes), thanks for informing us, we will try to implement it to the best of our abilities. In terms of what we have done up to now, it is a lot better to have slightly stressed toads then dead ones in my opinion, so we are very grateful to all the people that have helped out.
I do see what Caleb is saying though, they are going to get stressed and come in to contact with each other anyway and from what ive seen the males dont seem to be annoying the females that much in the buckets. But as I said, if they can be seperated then we will try It terms of using a fence, the side of the road the toads are coming from is a thick forest on a steep incline, so there is no way to put one up. They are also migrating along about a mile of the road, so even if we could put a fence up that would be a lot of effort and money.
Obviously we have high vis on and some very powerful torches so cars can see us, its also a pretty straight road, so they have plenty notice
edit / and yes we do stick in pairs!
edit2/ also incase the point comes up, we were monitoring which way the animals were going, as frogs (and some female toads which had obviously dropped their load off) were heading back to the forest!
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 I dont think that the males arrive with the female's at exactly the sametime. Males wait for females in prominent positions (middle of the road) and hitch a lift Taking all the males and placing them into buckets with a few females may increase the pressure on the female in terms of multiple mating which drowns and kills female toads. Trying to give the females a fighting chance not to be swamped with males all at once is probably a good idea. The value of collecting toads from roads is questioned just as this suggestion would be questioned to its use in toad conservation. When you gently pick up a male toad you will have them clasp your fingers but also if you pick them up they will squeak - a release call while females do not make any noise. What is the point of collecting toads on roads? if you do not count the males and females then you are missing out on useful information.
J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 [QUOTE=herpetologic2] if you pick them up they will squeak - a release call while females do not make any noise.[/QUOTE] Females which have already laid eggs will also make a release call. [QUOTE=herpetologic2] What is the point of collecting toads on roads? if you do not count the males and females then you are missing out on useful information. [/QUOTE] I thought the point was to reduce roadkill mortality; but you may have a different agenda. |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2009 Okay so females who are travelling to the pond to breed would not make a release call. reducing roadkill is obviously important. There is important information which the the rescues each spring can collect on toad populations in the UK. The data and experiences of toad patrolers were important in detecting the decline of toads in parts of England such as Southeast and east of England. In Hampshire we have had some near misses in terms of patrollers being run off the road by motorists. Fencing is being suggested to remove the need to venture onto the road or maybe closing the road during the two week migration period etc etc I would want to have people collect useful information on toads from road crossings and also surveying the ponds where they are breeding. J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Peter Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2008 No. of posts: 260 View other posts by Peter |
Posted: 05 Mar 2009
Thank you Mark for your help at this site, it`s much appreciated as is your recruiting further helpers from the university. Good work.
[QUOTE=herpetologic2]Perhaps it may be an idea to separate male toads from Good idea Jon, and one that I have considered. This site was only discovered days before we worked the site for the first time and everything relating to the site is very much in the preparation stage. When we have access to more buckets we will impliment it where possible if it seems necessary. As it stands however, the stress levels reached by the animals concerned by spending about 40 minutes at a time in a bucket in company are significantly less than the amount of stress that is caused by being run over by a car. I am aware of the problem caused by "Knots" and the increased likelihood of drowning in the case of the females, which is why pairs are released seperately and a short distance away from the single/surplus males. A little common sense has been applied. No seperation has been necessary so far as the pairs in the buckets have stayed as pairs without additional males joining in. If the situation changes, I will address it.
Again, I considered this option BEFORE viewing the site, but the practicalities of fencing a mile and a half stretch are not realistic at this stage. One good feature of this particular site is that although the road is a fast road, it is a long straight stretch with broadleaf forest on the one side and a canal and other fresh water bodies on the other. Any vehicles appearing take almost a full minute to reach you from when the headlights first appear in the Welsh darkness.
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Peter Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2008 No. of posts: 260 View other posts by Peter |
Posted: 07 Mar 2009 An update on the situation, 19 toads yesterday and 9 palmate newts. (Mark, do you have images of yesterdays bucket contents?) 6 of the toads were unlaiden females returning in the other direction. Such animals are released instantly on the forest side of the road and not placed in the bucket, and as you will note, we keep count of the numbers. 8 toads (3 female and 5 male) and at least 3 palmate newts (all female) were run over and killed during the period that we were on watch. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Lynne, Jackie and Phil for their efforts at the Neath toad crossing site, and Mark, Suzy, Chaela, Jess, Emma, Hannah and Lily for their assistance at various times that they have been able to at the other two sites. The two bucket question; We are now using two buckets per pair when possible but not to seperate the toads into sexes, but to seperate the species as an increasing number of newts is on the move (either that or we are getting more proficient at finding them) and a more realistic stress factor is toads trampling newts in a bucket. Last night one pair of toads were found crossing already in amplexus, and one pair got together in the bucket due to our bucket orchestrated "matchmaking". Again we saw no sign of "knots" forming, and the animals were released in such a way that the pairs and single females were not placed among numbers of eager males, (common sense) although I expect that the pairs and females may well have found themselves in such a situation once in the breeding pond. [QUOTE=herpetologic2] I dont think that the males arrive with the female's at exactly the sametime. Males wait for females in prominent positions (middle of the road) and hitch a lift [/QUOTE] I don`t know if you are experiencing similar things in Hampshire Jon, but the anuran breeding season here in Wales is noticably less explosive and a good deal more protracted than in years gone by. Some males wait for females at the bottom of the pond as has been observed at several sites local to me. Some males ambush females terrestrially or even in the road as you stated. Some males are still travelling to the breeding site when some females are on their way back from it. At the site mentioned by Mark in the first post, although the majority of the animals moving away from the breeding site have been female, a few have also been male. The later arrivals moving in the opposite direction are also of mixed gender.
The situation was the same at another site last year with animals of both sexes moving in both directions over a relatively lengthy period of over a fortnight. We employ the tactic of observing an animal if unsure of it`s intended destination (without blinding it with the lamp of course) for a period, to assess to the best of our ability whether the animal is; perhaps disorientated due to a near miss with some car headlights, or travelling to or from the breeding site. [QUOTE=herpetologic2]Taking all the males and placing them into buckets with a few females may increase the pressure on the female in terms of multiple mating which drowns and kills female toads.[/QUOTE] Whilst in the bucket perhaps yes, although no knots have formed in the bucket so far this year and as has been mentioned already, consideration is given to the animal`s situation (i.e. whether in amplexus, or the animal`s gender) when released. The bucket contents is not just tipped out and left to get on with it in a heap. [QUOTE=herpetologic2]Trying to give the females a fighting chance not to be swamped with males all at once is probably a good idea.[/QUOTE] As we are doing, as well as giving them a fighting chance against being run over by a car. [QUOTE=herpetologic2]The value of collecting toads from roads is questioned just as this suggestion would be questioned to its use in toad conservation.[/QUOTE] Not if the simple common sense measures taken to reduce the instances of the obvious potential problem of bucket orchestrated spawning knots such as releasing the pairs and females away from the "gang" of surplus males as has been mentioned above (hardly rocket science) are taken no, the value of collecting toads from roads is not questioned at all Jon. [QUOTE=herpetologic2]When you gently pick up a male toad you will have them clasp your fingers but also if you pick them up they will squeak - a release call while females do not make any noise.[/QUOTE] "Empty" females also make a slightly different call as you must have experienced? [QUOTE=herpetologic2]What is the point of collecting toads on roads?[/QUOTE] Quite obviously the point of collecting toads from roads is to attempt to lessen the effect of a lack of ability on the amphibians part to be able to adapt almost overnight in evolutionary terms with the sudden appearance (again in evolutionary terms) of the virtually insurmountable barrier of tarmac roads and the heavy traffic that they bring with them. [QUOTE=herpetologic2] if you do not count the males and females then you are missing out on useful information.[/QUOTE] ...and unless one has a vast team of knowledgeable workers when it is far more likely that the case will be a very small team of willing, able and unpaid volunteers with no agenda other than active conservation of the species concerned with no monetary gain involved spread thinly across multiple sites, then the object of the exercise (which is to increase the numbers of toads that successfully manage to reach the breeding site, not just to collect data!) is defeated as increased numbers of animals are destroyed on the road whilst the volunteers pontificate and faff around at the side of the road deciding gender and counting and not collecting animals at risk.
Until such times as the ARG becomes an ARGonaught however we must do our best with what is at our disposal.
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Peter Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2008 No. of posts: 260 View other posts by Peter |
Posted: 07 Mar 2009 I would also like to thank Dr Dan Forman of the Conservation and Ecology Research Team Swansea (CERTS) based at the Institute of Environmental Sustainability, Swansea University who also happens to be SWWARG`s honorary president for recruiting greatly valued helpers from the University to assist us with the toads on roads campaign. At this rate, we may get our data collecters as well!
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 08 Mar 2009 Where there is a means there is a way. Students - probably mostly nocturnal in their habits and perhaps ideally placed to carry out the necessary data collection. I am getting real Peter. People blindly collect toads from roads in Hampshire and dump them into the hedge closest to their assumed breeding site. It has become a habit to do this without any real collection of numbers. Yes I agree that collecting toads from roads is important but we do need to find ways of collecting data in a simple way (e.g. numbers of adults, females & males each year etc) for volunteers and possibly in a more detailed way on selected populations using students...... Quite obviously the point of collecting toads from roads is to attempt to lessen the effect of a lack of ability on the amphibians part to be able to adapt almost overnight in evolutionary terms with the sudden appearance (again in evolutionary terms) of the virtually insurmountable barrier of tarmac roads and the heavy traffic that they bring with them. I like this quote plenty of items there which need research. At my toad crossing I have looked at the situation around the crossing. After reviewing the data collected from the toad crossing in Alresford - Drove Lane it looks like the toads are not adapting well to the road and its apparent impact on toad numbers - the numbers have gone down from 1000's to a few dozen over a 10 year period. It looks like the road has killed off the population. however if you look a little further there are other factors which need to be considered. 1. Intensive salad farming has increased on the terrestrial side of the road - plenty of burning, ploughing and pesticide application. 2. Grass snakes on the water side of the road still manage to find plenty of baby toads around the breeding habitat 3. Suitable terrestrial habitat exists on the right side of the road - the area around the breeding habitat so the toads do not settle on the wrong side of the road (possibly?) 4. Very large toads still cross the road each year compared to another local crossing in Avington Park. I would suggest that the toads at Drove lane are older and still find suitable habitat to survive and are lucky in crossing the road. With lower numbers more you would assume would survive the crossing and so carry on the tradition of crossing the road while the new recruits do not cross the road (I speculate) Now this suggests possibly that the toad population has adapted to the road - they hole up on the right side of the road and so do not cross the road anymore because any toadlets that make their way across the road would not find suitable habitat. I would suggest that the road kill may not have been the driving force for the reduction in status (numbers) based on the numbers collected on the road. It is possibly the agricultural practices on the adjoining farm. I am intrigued by this situation and I am trying to get access to the toad breeding pond so I can confirm whether this still has large numbers of toads. Also the salad production of the farm is ceasing this year. I would like to put in place new habitats on the terrestrial habitat side of the road. At present the road collection is the only avenue to our volunteers to count the toads and provide a relative idea of whether toads are increasing at the site. I am pleased that support for toad crossings for SWWARG is ongoing and I hope that the data is collected. I have an uphill struggle in Hampshire as HARG do not want anything to do with toad crossings. I am trying to organise people and give them support with their toad patrols as a coordinator for Froglife through ARG UK. You have to go through health and safety issues and risk assessments for your volunteers to be covered under SWWARG insurance through ARG UK so why not explain the protocol for collecting data on toads during the migration season. Just an idea Jon Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 08 Mar 2009 PS I hope to get students involved in looking at the situation at my two crossings I need all the help I can get collecting toads or setting fencing etc and surveying the breeding habitat J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Mark_b Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 No. of posts: 79 View other posts by Mark_b |
Posted: 08 Mar 2009 We went out last night, had 10 people in total spread over 2 sites The smaller road in Ammanford got 31 toads and 1 frog (not sure about newts) At the fast road (18:30 - 20:30) we had .... Toads total 49 (14 pairs, 15 singles, 6 heading back to woods) It terms of trying to get you more people in hampshire jon as I lived in Bishops Waltham my whole life .... I would contact Southampton Uni, they obviously do ecology there, as I nearly did my Zoology degree at Soton, so its worth contacting them for help, get some people joining the ARG etc! Also I would contact Steve Nash at Sparsholt College, he is a good mate of mine who is proper into his reptiles (mainly exotic) .. but im sure you could find some students to help (most of them will be kids, but there will be some older students doing HND etc) Thats all I can think of for now
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Mark_b Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 No. of posts: 79 View other posts by Mark_b |
Posted: 08 Mar 2009 Oh yea so Thanks to Tom, Lily, Suzie, Eliane, Jess, Hannah, Chaela, Sophie and Maddie!
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Peter Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2008 No. of posts: 260 View other posts by Peter |
Posted: 08 Mar 2009 Hi Jon, Good to chew the fat again although it would be better over a beer like last time. We are on a recruitment drive for students to assist with the toad crossings and monitoring and recording where possible. It is something that we were intending to achieve from the start bearing in mind that everything concerned with these sites is still very much in the preparatory awareness raising stages. I am pleased to say that two more recruits joined the patrol yesterday evening. Remember though, we have three sites to cover, two of which were only very recently identified by us. The ôget realö comment was referring to the availability of knowledgeable and regular volunteers locally. Like I said, we are already on an all out recruitment drive, with help from Dan Forman and Swansea University so we are doing our best. Most of Dan`s contacts are studying either biology or zoology so we have a fighting chance of recruiting recorders, itÆs a question of how often people can attend. You said; Yes I agree that collecting toads Agreed Jon, it all boils down to the same thing though, a need to recruit and educate regular volunteers. We are going to great effort to do so, considering that SWWARG was not in existence this time last year, a total of ten volunteers attending yesterday isn`t bad. Tonight though I have only three. Jon, I`m sorry to hear about the apparent lack of awareness regarding dumping buckets full of toads in Hampshire. This is something that we should perhaps jointly address and set out a protocol regarding avoidance of releasing females and hoards of males together. Your site in Hampshire sounds extremely interesting with many variables to consider. The single site that we have been referring to in this thread however has no salad farm or such like, just woodland (here I speculate due to a lack of knowledge re the site as it is new to us) but it would not be unreasonable to assume that there is little or no use of pesticides or fertiliser in the forest (I will investigate further). The other side is lowland scrub, a canal and several shallow temporary water bodies. I have heard anecdotal accounts of grass snakes on the aquatic habitat side of the road at the site, and will investigate further regarding this. So far, the only interesting anecdotal reports that I have heard regarding the site point to there being noticeable numbers of road casualty toads only in recent years. I have observed that there are numerous predators in the area, and I imagine it likely that buzzards and corvids etc are clearing up any bodies pretty quickly (speculation again). It is all worth investigating however as you rightly state, but at this stage, prevention of road casualties takes precedence. You said;
With lower numbers more you would assume would Interesting theories. I would have thought that both factors mentioned, (salad farm and road) would be contributing factors to the decline in toad numbers, it would be interesting to know for certain. You said; Also the salad production of the farm is ceasing this Good news. I have just got word that yet another new university student will be joining me this evening so there is hope for a recording team yet. The main problem though is regularity of attendance, we may struggle on nights to have even enough people present to cover the stretch adequately, (such is the case this evening) and on other occasions we may have a surplus which would mean that recording data would be more practicable. This will not be consistent however. All the best, Peter P.S. Good luck with getting students involved down at your neck of the woods. I have now just had confirmed the fact that we have a pair of volunteers attending one of the sites this evening and two others joining me at the ôfast roadö site. The third site has a local crew attending so all three sites are covered again this evening. It`s not likely that we will have time to record all data required with these numbers, but we will do our best. Cutting down the number of animals destroyed takes priority though.
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Baby Sue Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2008 No. of posts: 412  View other posts by Baby Sue |
Posted: 10 Mar 2009 Can I join in?!
I never knew there was a problem sticking boy and girl toads and frogs in the same bucket.
BTW, Oldies?!
[QUOTE=Mark_b] At the fast road (18:30 - 20:30) we had .... Toads total 49 (14 pairs, 15 singles, 6 heading back to woods) WhatÆs a palmate?
I ainÆt been looking for frogs and toads this season yet. I wanted presents from lots of you. Snot fair that Ben Rigsby was the only one to send me Xmas & birthday presents. 
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Peter Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2008 No. of posts: 260 View other posts by Peter |
Posted: 10 Mar 2009 [QUOTE=Baby Sue] WhatÆs a palmate?
Hi Sue. A palmate is a species of newt that is widespread throughout Britain.
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 10 Mar 2009 [QUOTE=Baby Sue] Can I join in?!
á I never knew there was a problem sticking boy and
á BTW, Oldies?!
á [QUOTE=Mark_b] At the fast road (18:30 - 20:30) we
Toads total 49 (14 pairs, 15 singles, 6 heading back
WhatÆs a palmate?
á I ainÆt been looking for frogs and toads this season
You shouldn't really be doing this alone for health and safety. If you have more than one person then the two bucket method can be used while single people need to take what is suitable for them. If you are an ARG member and you are taking up the insurance from ARG UK then you need to carry out a risk assessment and we would prefer that more than one person is on a road at night with the usual safety gear - high vis etc J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
- The toads are crossing roads in Wales |
Get real though Jon! The information you mention would indeed be useful, and if you feel inclined to send us half a dozen experienced toad counters (that would be two per site so far identified, so not being greedy!) and pay for their travelling & accomodation expenses not to mention loss of earnings over a two week or longer period then we may be able to impliment the data collection that you suggest.
IÆve worried about little toads sitting at the bottom when thereÆs a bonking frenzy going on on top of them and IÆve wondered if they could possibly be squashed dead or suffocated but all my toads have made it out alive. 
I could never be bothered with two buckets, I ainÆt got enough hands anyway, 
you need one for the torch, one for the bucket, and itÆd be useful if you had another couple for picking them up. 
& if itÆs raining I need a brolli hand. 
& anyway IÆm too dumb to tell which is which and if I fannied around in the dark scratching my head wondering which bucket it should go in others around me would be getting squashed. 
What do you need proper data for? 
What do you do with it once youÆve got it? 
If it says toads are screwed and numbers are falling do you breed them in captivity or something and put more out in the wild? 
Is there breeding units somewhere?! 
If I tell the lady frogs are disappearing will she add more in my area? 
Now that IÆve moved house I canÆt see if thereÆs roadkill without going out of my way. 
The wind went away later last night so IÆm figuring they might have started their journey by now, I might go out tonight to see, bummer though cos IÆll have to miss ColeenÆs Real Women. 